Fixable
Succession: Dealing with a shift change in the C-Suite
May 20, 2024
[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
Hey everyone. Welcome back to Fixable, the show where we believe meaningful change happens fast. I'm your host, Anne Morriss.
[00:00:08] Frances Frei:
And I'm your co-host Frances Frei.
[00:00:10] Anne Morriss:
One of many roles. Frances, let's go directly to the voicemail today.
[00:00:15] Frances Frei:
Let's do it.
[00:00:16] Alan:
Hey Anne and Frances. This is Alan and I work for the government.
I'm in a top level executive position and we have constrained budgets. Very complicated organization and you know, senior leadership changes when the political party in charge changes, and I've been working really hard for two years trying to build an organization that will last. Stand the test of time between administration changes.
What advice do you have?
[00:00:47] Anne Morriss:
Oh wow. It's a really interesting way to think about this idea of legacy and having an impact that will endure even in circumstances where the context may shift pretty dramatically.
[00:01:03] Frances Frei:
Yeah. We talk about presence and absence leadership, so how do you lead people in your presence in a way that endures into our absence?
And one of the things we know is that the levers of absence leadership, it's systems, culture, strategy. And so we want to set up the systems, culture, and strategy so that we can withstand any kinds of changes in the environment.
[00:01:37] Anne Morriss:
Alan, welcome to Fixable.
[00:01:39] Alan:
This is great. I am such a fan. I'm more nervous talking to you and excited than I was testifying in front of a congressional hearing this week.
[00:01:47] Frances Frei:
Hilarious. Hilarious.
[00:01:50] Anne Morriss:
Oh, that is the nicest thing anyone has ever said to us.
[00:01:51] Frances Frei:
You’re gonna have way more fun with us.
[00:01:56] Anne Morriss:
Yes.
[00:01:56] Alan:
I certainly hope so.
[00:01:57] Frances Frei:
I feel very confident in saying that.
[00:02:01] Anne Morriss:
Um, so Alan, we would love to get a little more texture about what you do all day. Can you give us a sense of a day in the life of Alan in the workplace?
[00:02:14] Alan:
So, I'm in charge of a large IT services delivery organization in a government agency.
Our budget is very large in the billions. We have staff over 8,000 staff, about the similar number of contractors. We deliver a broad portfolio of IT products and services from printers and workstations and laptops to cloud service providers and IT security solutions and all that. So the full portfolio, I have have 11 executives that report to me and I report directly to politically appointed chief information officer position.
[00:02:49] Anne Morriss:
So is it fair to say you are as high as you could go in this organization without being a political appointee?
[00:03:01] Alan:
Correct. I am the senior career person in the organization, in the IT organization.
[00:03:08] Anne Morriss:
Got it. And what do you love about the work you do right now?
[00:03:14] Alan:
It is so varied and because of our size and scope, I get to talk to senior executives at large Fortune 50 companies as well as other government agencies.
Um, and I've been in the organization for 29 years and I came up through the ranks.
[00:03:30] Anne Morriss:
Wow.
Started as a temporary secretary when I ran out of money as a graduate student to now being the, the top, uh,
[00:03:39] Anne Morriss:
The top dog,
[00:03:39] Alan:
Top the top career person. So I have a lot of loyalty to the organization, to the staff, to, and the mission of my organization it's always been one where I, I never have to apologize.
I can tell my family, the public, anyone who I work for and what I do, and I'm just super proud. When I started working here, I had to walk past the public to get to my first position. And I could tell that we were doing something important. We were, we're really taking care of people, uh, that really needed the services that the government provided.
And that's only become more and more clear over time. So I just, the mission keeps me.
[00:04:21] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Awesome. Tell us a little bit about the, the friction that inspired you to come on the show today.
[00:04:28] Alan:
Oh, we have a problem in a government agency political leadership changes regularly and over my almost 30 year career in this agency those changes can be radical, they can be significant, they can be incredibly disruptive, and it can be very hard for us to hold the line and stick with a vision and a way of working that is effective through those transitions.
And we are really asking the fundamental questions now, how can we build ways of working and a culture throughout our organization so that we can persist?
That what we've learned that is working really, really well. Not all of it is working really well. Um, but what is working well can endure. I worry about the reversion to the mean. Which I have had in my career. Uh, when I take a position over a team, I've been able to consistently move them from sort of medium performance to high performance.
But then as I've been promoted and moved away from those in my career, I, I've seen them all revert back to the mean, pretty much. And then I worry, I'm a cult of personality of some of something weird that I do, that I have not figured out how to scale myself and my abilities. Or the way of working or leading that I have.
So in the last probably five to seven years, I've focused on teaching the way that I lead to, to people. And while that hasn't led to miracles, those leaders that I have had a chance to work with closely have learned the way, and they're doing great things where they are. But that's a, it's so slow and it just feels fragile.
[00:06:18] Anne Morriss:
Mm-Hmm.
[00:06:18] Alan:
And so I have a lot of anxiety about the future.
[00:06:21] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Yeah, totally get it. Uh, for those of us who haven't worked in government before, can you walk us through one of these transition moments so that we can kind of feel what this disruption feels like? And listeners, he is smiling, borderline laughing, uh, as he reflects on, I'm sure the absurdity of some of it.
[00:06:48] Alan:
The new person comes in and say, for example, a technology organization like ours, the politically appointed person who comes in may not have a background in technology
[00:07:01] Anne Morriss:
At all.
[00:07:02] Alan:
At all, or they may not have had, like we once had someone with a background in finance, but not technology. In some cases. We have had folks that do have a background in technology, but it's with a commercial industry that had very well-defined verticals and didn't have the constraints of a federal budget cycle and congressional oversight and sort of, you have to follow certain laws.
So they will come in and be very frustrated with what appears to be a lot of bureaucracy, a lot of process. And at the same time, you're trying to read that person into how does the organization, the government organization, at large function, and what is their role in that?
And there's a whole new crew of political folks who are figuring that out for themselves because they can change that. So the ways that work and decisions moved through the prior administration could change and could change radically. Now those of us that are career folks are committed to ensuring the work continues to flow during that transition.
But as the leaders sort of coalesce and have their own perspective, they can change that. Completely.
[00:08:14] Anne Morriss:
Mm-Hmm mm-hmm.
[00:08:15] Alan:
Um, sometimes the governance is tighter, sometimes it's looser. Um, and sometimes the politicals don't all agree with each other and they can then have friction and tension amongst them and then work throughout the organization slows.
And we career folks wait to understand how all that's gonna shake out while we try to get the daily work to go through. The best of them come in and take time to learn. What's happening and assess what's working well and then try to make changes. Other times they, they come in and they make changes very abruptly.
[00:08:49] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hmm.
[00:08:49] Alan:
So it's a, it's a fraught time.
[00:08:52] Anne Morriss:
Uh, these are a lot of variables. Alan, you are negotiating and so just if I were to try to summarize best case scenario, team shows up with a political appointee, with a growth mindset, curiosity, interest in what is working well. Worst case scenario finish that sentence for me.
[00:09:15] Alan:
Worst case scenario, they think government is bad and incompetent and we should all go. They don't listen to anything we say or appreciate anything that we are doing. And they come in making wholesale changes with things that don't work are not effective, and then we could lose an entire budget cycle or two.
[00:09:39] Anne Morriss:
And then just to remind us, when you say one or two budget cycles, those numbers are in the billions.
[00:09:49] Alan:
In the billions. Yes. And that's why I come to you. Amazing, amazing humans that I have listened to and admired, and I'm like, wow. What magic can you pull out of the hat to help me think through this most challenging thing?
[00:10:05] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you come to the right place.
[00:10:08] Alan:
I'll use all my skills. I'll use all my skills in service of this country to make this go well.
[00:10:14] Anne Morriss:
Oh. Yeah, it's a privilege to roll up our sleeves and yeah, and be thought partners, Francis, summarize where we are.
[00:10:22] Frances Frei:
Yeah, I like your word Alan. Abrupt. There's an abruptness to this.
It's also pretty unusual to bring in a senior executive that doesn't know the business. Um, it's also unusual to bring in a senior executive that has contempt for the organization. So those are two unusual things. We're gonna be able to deal with it, but that's what I would say is the
[00:10:45] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hmm.
[00:10:46] Frances Frei:
Unusual part. It's abrupt. Very, you can have low continuity, you can not have knowledge, and you can have contempt and that's quite a cocktail.
[00:10:56] Anne Morriss:
And I think what's generalizable Francis, for anyone listening, you, you always talk about learning in the extremes. So
[00:11:05] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:11:05] Anne Morriss:
For e, everyone listening. You know.
[00:11:07] Frances Frei:
If we can do it here, here, we can do it anywhere.
[00:11:10] Anne Morriss:
And dealing with the, the abruptness of a leadership change and change in style and strategy, I think that's part of working in any organization. But we're gonna have some fun at the extremes.
[00:11:18] Frances Frei:
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm, I'm digging the extreme. I’m digging the extreme.
[00:11:22] Anne Morriss:
You wanna get the party started?
[00:11:23] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So there's two things that come to mind and I'd love to get your reaction to them.
The first one is, there is a concept of buffer leadership and buffered leadership is what we coach people to do when above them is sending signals that we don't want to permeate below us, and so we absorb them and reframe them and send them down.
[00:11:50] Alan:
I, I love that concept and I have utilized it a lot in my career. I've used the terminology, I I'm an umbrella or shield.
[00:11:58] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:11:59] Alan:
My job is to absorb what's going on above and then translate what makes sense to keep the workforce focused and moving forward. I, I think my colleagues have said, I don't want the position you're in, Alan, because it's political. There's so many politics, and I've come to translate that as you have to do this translation and you have to absorb that noise and chaos and friction.
And folks generally don't seem to find that appealing.
[00:12:30] Anne Morriss:
Well, it's a very specific skillset. I have to say that for those executives who have it.
[00:12:36] Frances Frei:
Amazing things happen to them.
[00:12:37] Anne Morriss:
It's a superpower. We, we wrote about the great Marvin Ellison, who's now CEO of Lowe's, who really perfected this when he was an EVP at Home Depot, and spoke really beautifully about the kind of power and importance of this in any organization.
But I love your long list of what you're absorbing. I would also put emotions on that list.
[00:13:01] Alan:
Oh, yes.
[00:13:02] Anne Morriss:
Um, so you're taking that all in and then. Translating in a way that it can be useful to everyone executing below you.
[00:13:11] Alan:
Yes.
[00:13:11] Frances Frei:
So I think, so buffer leadership is the first of two things that we might go through, and it sounds like that one will be promising.
The other is, when you spoke about how the team does well, when you're with them, they go from good to great, and then that sometimes dissipates after you leave. We talk about presence leadership, and absence leadership. Presence leadership is when we make people better as a result of our presence. That's when you brought people from good to great absence.
Leadership is what happens after you leave the room. So it sounds like you get an A for presence leadership and a needs improvement for absence leadership, which, so then we're gonna get to talk about what to do in order to set people up for success in our absence. Is that a fruitful area?
[00:13:58] Alan:
Spot on. I, I've.
[00:13:59] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:14:00] Alan:
Tried to think of it as building a culture so that folks will do the right things when you're not there.
I've worked really hard on figuring out how to put the management systems in place and the measurement systems in place so that it reinforces that culture and the outcome. Uh. I gotta say it's, it's a place I'm still learning and developing.
[00:14:21] Anne Morriss:
Yep. Those are, the culture and systems are, are two of the three big levers you have in absence leadership.
The third one we would add is strategy, which is deep, deep clarity around, I think in this case, prioritization. You know, where the organization and the teams reporting to you are really gonna excel. And are there trade-offs that they need to make in order to sustain that excellence? And can I just push on this lever because, and I'll give you some context.
So when we go into organizations that are in a hurry on culture change, one of the levers that we will use is large scale training. You know, leadership, management, education, because the modeling of good behavior is a very powerful lever, but sometimes it is too slow for the needs of the organization.
Right now you have been able to influence a relatively small number of people. I'm assuming that you have mentored teams, that you have led.
[00:15:34] Frances Frei:
An apprenticeship model almost.
[00:15:36] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Like
[00:15:37] Alan:
Yeah.
[00:15:37] Anne Morriss:
What would it look like to do this at a larger scale?
[00:15:40] Alan:
Well, I, uh, we're now in the third cycle of, uh, a leadership development program, so I've been trying to, to get crews through, so we're in the third cycle now, and that's about 20 people.
We've, I found that when we tried to go larger, the quality suffered.
[00:15:57] Anne Morriss:
But what if I, what if I gave you the challenge to add one zero.
[00:16:02] Frances Frei:
At least.
[00:16:02] Anne Morriss:
Uh, this year and two zeroes next year?
[00:16:05] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:16:06] Anne Morriss:
Um, to.
[00:16:07] Alan:
I have no idea how.
[00:16:09] Anne Morriss:
I know, but, but what if, but I, let's just start.
[00:16:11] Alan:
I have no idea how.
[00:16:15] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:16:12] Anne Morriss:
Because you, when I used to interview people all the time, I would give them like a skill rating and then a GSD rating, which is just the ability to get shit done.
So you're off the charts on both. Okay. So here's the challenge I'm giving. You're adding a zero in the next 12 months and another zero in the next 24 months of the people you can reach.
[00:16:30] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:16:31] Anne Morriss:
Oh, and here's some tools like the platform in which we're operating now. Zoom, which has the magical ability at low cost and in a frictionless way to convene humans in the hundreds easily.
[00:16:45] Alan:
So we have a studio to broadcast. I'm getting ready to get a walk across the street to do a town hall about a, a major change in our organization.
[00:16:53] Anne Morriss:
Oh, look the list of resources is growing. Yeah.
[00:16:55] Alan:
And I, I have thought about these things. I am a humble farm boy from the Midwest who thinks no one is gonna listen to a damn thing I say. So.
[00:17:07] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:17:07] Alan:
I haven't figured out how to prioritize that.
[00:17:09] Frances Frei:
Okay, so.
[00:17:09] Anne Morriss:
But Alan, that's, that's the only thing in your way here.
[00:17:12] Frances Frei:
That's is the only thing in your way.
[00:17:13] Anne Morriss:
You, there's a fucking studio across the street.
[00:17:18] Frances Frei:
It's yourself. It's your looking in the mirror and labeling yourself farm boy is the only obstacle to you going from 20 to 200 to 2000 and so.
[00:17:27] Anne Morriss:
I wanna reduce the timeline.
[00:17:28] Frances Frei:
I do too. I like, I'm already within one year we're at 2000. So let me give a couple of thoughts about this. But I think this is the great unlock. So education is the greatest unlock, but not the apprenticeship model that you are doing. You know, that's lovely and not what we want.
[00:17:45] Alan:
And forging leaders, artisanally one at a time.
[00:17:48] Frances Frei:
Yes.
[00:17:48] Anne Morriss:
Mmm. Yes.
[00:17:49] Frances Frei:
Yes. We're gonna. So it's too precious. It's too precious and it's not high enough quality it you're gonna find you can go actually faster, higher, and with better quality and doing it with cohorts. So here are some good things. In the beginning when you said one of the nice parts about your job is that you get to talk to people in the top 50 organizations, every one of them has an internal academy.
Every single one of them has already solved this problem. It's just you haven't been talking to them about that. You've been talking to them about other things. So starting next week, I'd like you to pick 20 of them and give yourself three weeks to talk to 20 of them about their internal leadership academy.
You're gonna learn two things. One is they have amazing internal resources like you, but they also use amazing external resources. You are offering a noble purpose. You could get the pick of any faculty that you wanted. So let's say that remote work was one of the things you wanted to teach people or about how to do things in a hybrid way.
Nicholas Bloom at Stanford is the foremost authority on it. He's a beautiful educator and his.
[00:19:01] Anne Morriss:
Super mission-driven.
[00:19:02] Frances Frei:
So mission-driven and so patriotic. You could get him to come in and help with simply a humble invitation. I haven't talked to him about it obviously. So, but you have the world at your fingertips, you can access anyone.
You just have to decide that you're gonna do it, and that you're gonna do it at scale and at pace.
[00:19:23] Alan:
It's exciting. I'm speechless 'cause it, it is doable. It, it certainly is within my ability to do, uh, I, I guess my organization has for a long time felt unworthy. Like that was a culture that we had, like we were a utility to, to be consumed by the universe rather than a leader.
Or, um, when I started going and visiting other companies, I was viewed askance, like, “what are you doing out there? None of that could apply to government.” And I'm, “no, no. It's.”
[00:19:54] Frances Frei:
Bring me outside inside Alan. Bring me outside inside.
[00:19:56] Anne Morriss:
I mean, but what a, what an amazing cultural assumption that you now get to blow up in a gorgeous way.
[00:20:05] Frances Frei:
Gorgeous.
[00:20:06] Alan:
I, I'm game. I, I wanna do it.
[00:20:08] Anne Morriss:
We're professionally obligated to ask. What's your first couple moves coming outta this conversation? Because you have such high executive function, we're not gonna ask you the first, we're gonna say first three.
[00:20:18] Alan:
Well first is to work. I have a network of other large CIOs to go to and ask, how do you do training at scale?
That's the first thing. The second is to work.
[00:20:30] Anne Morriss:
Beautiful.
[00:20:31] Alan:
With my, my internal team on how can we need to set up a regular cadence at least once a week. I'm gonna be aggressive there, uh, to start recording things. I actually have a long list of like blog posts I aspire to do on LinkedIn. These are topics and questions people drive by ask me, and I just need to record those for internal resources and get them available for our teams to consume.
Uh, so it's two and then three is about our own internal, uh, leadership program. We're moving some resources around to improve that organization and get some good leadership in there. And I think it's ready to scale and to get an, an executive in there and get some staff resource so we can partner with other parts of this large government agency that do some of that, uh, to see what we can do to share resources and build a, a strong leadership program for more than just the 20.
[00:21:29] Frances Frei:
I think you can create the Premier Leadership Academy within the government. And I think that that would be a lovely part of your legacy, by the way it would also provide buffer leadership because if you are creating leadership development for people, they can handle the ebbs and flows that are going on above them much better, and you're preparing them for your absence.
There's such a noble purpose in it. I want you to learn from the best internal leadership academies and cherry pick from there what will work for your group. 200 people within six months, 2000 people by the end of the year.
[00:22:13] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, that feels right.
[00:22:14] Frances Frei:
The best educators in the world teach the thousand people as well as they teach 20 people.
So go and talk to them and learn from them on how they do it. And then you don't have to be the person doing all of the teaching. I see you as the Dean of this
[00:22:30] Anne Morriss:
Yes.
[00:22:31] Frances Frei:
Of this academy.
[00:22:32] Anne Morriss:
That's a great word for Alan. Yes.
[00:22:34] Frances Frei:
Yeah, I mean, it's exactly it. And then bring in people who are super patriotic, who would be honored to participate.
You can bring in people who will help, wanna help you design this as part of their noble purpose in doing things. Give people the honor of tapping into their patriotism. They don't, you know, all the beautiful things you said in the beginning about not having to have apology? You could give that gift to anyone you want.
[00:23:02] Anne Morriss:
And particularly at this moment in American history, when everyone is leaning into thinking about, “How do we build a better, more resilient future for this country?” And you are giving people the gift of being able to participate in that most noble of challenges.
[00:23:19] Frances Frei:
I'll give you a sense of how much education I think it will take for someone who has no leadership development to someone who would thrive in your absence. It's not more than 40 hours really.
[00:23:32] Alan:
Really?
[00:23:33] Frances Frei:
It just has to be beautifully curated.
[00:23:35] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And I just wanna frame that intimate conversation between you and one person as a selfish choice.
[00:23:46] Alan:
Okay.
[00:23:47] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. The challenge is to open that conversation up to hundreds and thousands of people and meet hundreds and thousands of people where they are in their journey.
[00:24:01] Alan:
Okay. Challenge accepted.
[00:24:02] Frances Frei:
There it is.
[00:24:15] Anne Morriss:
So Francis, one of my favorite moments in that conversation was when you told him it would not take more than 40 hours to transform the place. Uh, so I wanna, I wanna push on that a little bit as we think about what listeners can take away from this conversation, how small that number I believed shocked our caller. So speak to that number a little bit.
[00:24:40] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yes. And and 40 hours of class time. Right?
[00:24:42] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:24:43] Frances Frei:
So that's quite, in my mind, that's quite a lot of education. But here is the types of curriculum you can do in 40 hours. So he doesn't need an IT curriculum. He needs a leadership.
[00:24:52] Anne Morriss:
Yep.
[00:24:53] Frances Frei:
Curriculum. Usually we design leadership curriculum as some form of leading self.
[00:24:58] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hmm.
[00:24:59] Frances Frei:
Leading team, leading organization.
[00:25:02] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hmm.
[00:25:03] Frances Frei:
You wanna do it in each one of those. And so if I get 10 to 15 hours on each one, that's like, let's call it if you, if they're hour long classes.
[00:25:14] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:25:14] Frances Frei:
I can do 10 classes on leading self.
[00:25:18] Anne Morriss:
Oh yeah.
[00:25:19] Frances Frei:
Put the best people in the world. Like your eyes just got bigger. Are you listener? Can you, were like.
[00:25:22] Anne Morriss:
I had 10 hours.
[00:25:23] Frances Frei:
You don't need 10 hours.
[00:25:24] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. No.
[00:25:24] Frances Frei:
You don't need 10. No.
[00:25:25] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:25:26] Frances Frei:
No.
[00:25:26] Anne Morriss:
That's helpful. That's helpful framing.
[00:25:27] Frances Frei:
And then leading teams. Look at how much we could do if we had 10 classes on leading self.
[00:25:33] Anne Morriss:
Of focused education.
[00:25:34] Frances Frei:
With the best educators in the world, and then 10 on leading teams and 10 on leading organizations. I promise you, you're gonna have a lot of reflection at the end.
[00:25:33] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. You're just throwing in an extra 10 just for the hell of it.
[00:25:44] Frances Frei:
So like 40 hours of like best in class
[00:25:49] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:25:49] Frances Frei:
Is an enormous amount of time.
[00:25:52] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:25:53] Frances Frei:
Now here's.
[00:25:54] Anne Morriss:
And that's the idea portion of the culture change. Now there's then taking it for a test drive and, and picking people up when they.
[00:26:02] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:26:02] Anne Morriss:
They stumble. And, and.
[00:26:05] Frances Frei:
So here's the other part of doing it.
[00:26:06] Anne Morriss:
And then there's the whole execution phase. But this is really about the, the, the idea phase and the capability investment phase.
[00:26:14] Frances Frei:
Yes.
[00:26:15] Anne Morriss:
Of change leadership.
[00:26:16] Frances Frei:
And the learning model that we use at the Harvard Business School. There are several stages to it.
So one, whatever the learning thing, we're gonna give you some individual preparation to do. Read an article, read a case, read something on your own. Ideally, you then meet with a, like if you're gonna have a classroom of 200 people, we're gonna assign you to a small discussion group and you'll meet with your discussion group before class to practice talking.
And that's that way when you get into the large group, you can talk even more and you have even better ideas. So we do individual prep, small group learning, large group learning.
[00:26:55] Anne Morriss:
That's the classroom.
[00:26:56] Frances Frei:
That's the classroom. Reflection.
[00:26:58] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hmm.
[00:26:59] Frances Frei:
Reflection is really important for you to be able to retain it.
When you do those four parts of the learning model, I'm saying that the classroom part. 40 hours will feel like infinity.
[00:27:10] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:27:11] Frances Frei:
Will feel like infinity. Right?
[00:27:12] Anne Morriss:
It is. It's plenty of time.
[00:27:14] Frances Frei:
Yeah. It is plenty of time to solve the leadership challenges of what this organization needs, which is not much leadership training.
[00:27:22] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:27:22] Frances Frei:
To getting everyone capable of leading people into their absence. Uh, 40 hours is plenty. I am so excited. What at the end of 2024, this organization is gonna be night and day different, and it's worthy of it. You know why it's gonna be? Because Alan reached out and asked for help.
[00:27:43] Anne Morriss:
I love it. I love it.
Thanks for listening. If you wanna figure out your workplace problem together, please send us a message. We would love to have you on the show. Email [email protected] or call 234-fixable. That's 234-439-2253. And if you're under the age of 35, you can also text us, honestly any way you wanna communicate with us, we are delighted to hear from you. We are so grateful for everyone who's written, called, texted. We couldn't make the show without you, quite literally. Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morriss.
[00:28:29] Frances Frei:
And me Francis Frei.
[00:28:30] Anne Morriss:
Our team includes Izii Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar and Roxanne Hai Lash. This episode was mixed by Louis at Story Yard.
[00:28:43] Frances Frei:
If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.